This is posted from the Bethel Church and Christianity Facebook Page. To date, the author has not been determined.
SAVED FROM THE DECEPTION OF CHARISMANIA
GOD SAVED ME AND BROUGHT ME OUT OF THE SIGNS AND WONDERS MOVEMENT
“It is also taught at Bethel Church (by Bill Johnson and Kris Vallotton) that once you become a Christian you are no longer a sinner.
One of their “key verses” for this is taken from Romans 6:11 “So you also must consider yourself dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.” Kris Vallotton would take this and say that since you are “dead to sin” you are no longer a sinner. But the context of “consider yourself dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.” means that we are no longer enslaved to sin, to fulfill its lusts and desires, that it is no longer the thing that drives us, it is not that we are no longer sinners.
Note on Video: [The fundamental error in Kris’ teaching is that he has missed the overriding context of 1 John. John writes to those who have made a profession of Christ (1 John 5:13) in an effort to assure them of their salvation. John does not write to non-believers as Mr. Vallotton suggests, therefore, he is guilty of allowing his presuppositions concerning sin and salvation to misleadingly guide his interpretation down an avenue that the apostle never imagined.]”
Shepherd/Guardian 
Here are two quotes from two different books by Bill Johnson in regards to sin:
Many believe His power exists only to help us overcome sin. This understanding stops very short of the Father’s intent for us to become witnesses of another world. Doesn’t it seem strange that our whole Christian life should be focused on overcoming something that has already been defeated? Sin and its nature have been yanked out by its roots…
…Many in the church are camped on the wrong side of the Cross…I don’t need power to overcome something [ED: sin] if I’m dead to it. [When Heaven Invades Earth. 2003, Treasure House/Destiny Image, Shippensburg, PA; p 110]
The forgiveness that God gives puts every believer in a place without sin. The only question that remains is how empowered by the Holy Spirit we are willing to be. [Face to Face with God. 2007, Charisma House, Lake Mary, FL; p 199]
These two quotes, while speaking on sinlessness, are at odds with each other. The first quote, especially the bolded portion, indicates we no longer have the sin nature, which would necessarily entail an impossibility to sin. The second one intimates that the ‘believer’ can potentially live sinlessly if said ‘believer’ is 100% submitted to the Holy Spirit. While I’m confident there are moments in which a true believer can be sinless, I’m also quite confident that those moments are not very longlasting, perhaps only seconds in duration.
Are We Sinless?
Over the years there have been numerous kinds of holiness movements that have had good intentions. Unfortunately, many have their promotion of holiness accompanied with the false teaching that we can achieve sinless perfection here on earth.
Are we sinless because we are forgiven, cleansed and given the Holy Spirit? Absolutely not. We are regenerated in our human spirit, given a new nature, but the old nature has not been removed.
What does the Bible say about sin and what is the biblical definition? The Bible says, “Sin is the transgression of the law” (I John 3:4). So any command by God that is not obeyed perfectly would be defined as sin. The apostle John makes it clear that, “All unrighteousness is sin” (I Jn. 5:17). So one would have to be perfectly righteous to not sin any longer. Paul also states, “for whatsoever is not of faith is sin” (Rom. 14:23) which would include everything we do. And James makes a general statement about ones conscience and omission “Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin” (James 4:17).
With these basic guidelines (and there are more) we can understand what the Bible defines as sin and how we are to act to not be considered participating in sin.
Everyone has Sin, believers and non-believers alike. The Bible states: “all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.” We have a fallen nature and for this reason we need to be born again or have a spiritual birth. Adam introduced sin. It resulted in both spiritual and physical death for him, spiritual first. Only Adam became a sinner by sinning. We die physically because of Adam’s sin passed on to all succeeding generations spiritually, genetically. We are all born with a built-in death warrant, which is our sin nature, because we have inherited this sin nature from Adam. We are born already spiritually dead (separated from God).
Rom 3:10 As it is written: “There is none righteous, no, not one; v.12 “there is none who does good, no, not one.” Jesus said to the rich young ruler who approached him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God” (Mark 10:18). Only God is intrinsically good, only God by His nature does good and does it all the time.
It is only after we have a new nature that we can even do good! And it comes from our new nature not the old. As Paul makes clear “For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing” (Rom. 7:18).
There are now two definitions of people: unbelievers (sinners) and believers (saints). God’s children are now called “saints,” and He calls the unredeemed “sinners” Rom. 1:7 ‘To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints.” Rom. 5:8 “while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Sinners are those who practice sin, this terminology is used to identify the ungodly, who live an ungodly life. Yet believers still sin, and it is because we still have a sinful nature. Many say we are no longer sinners and we are now saints, this becomes a problem of semantics. In the practical sense we are not sinners, but are still sinful. We have a positional change as well as a nature change. Sin is a nature that is in all mankind, NO man on earth does not have this fallen nature. They have been born with it and when we are born again we do not lose it, it is put aside as the ruling power over us.
The word Saint used for the believers show’s ones new position in Christ as they are set aside for his service, separate from the world (Rom.1:7; 1 Cor.1:2; Phil.4:21). Saints who are sinners saved by God’s grace have the new nature along with the old nature of sin in their body. In one way, when we identify sinners it means they have a lifestyle of sin, but this does not mean we who are saints are no longer called sinners. We still have sin in our members but since we practice holiness which no sinner can, we are not in the category of sinners per se. Yes we are saints (meaning to be set apart) but to lose this word and concept removes us from the reality that we ALL still sin.
Paul asks the rhetorical question. Is Christ therefore a minister of sin? No, he administrates holiness by his Spirit. When we yield to his Lordship, walk in faith by His Spirit we are fulfilling his commands (establish his laws and not transgress them).
Paul does talk about the old man we still have with us Eph.4:22; Col.3:9 and reminds us that our old man was crucified Rom. 6:6. The fact that we are to die to self, we are told to walk in the newness of life and obey from the heart implies that we have a choice in either fulfilling or failing in what we are asked to do. Which equals sin. In Romans 6 Paul speaking to believers states in verse 1. Do not continue in sin. V.2. Do not live in sin any longer. V.6. Do not serve sin. V. 12. Do not let sin reign in your body, do not obey your desires. V.13. Do not yield your body unto sin. V. 15. God forbid you should sin. V.16. The choice of sin, death is the result. V. 23. The wages of sin is death.
What is sanctification for, if we are already perfect and without sin? Sanctification is the process of working Christ’s nature in us daily to be more like him. This would not be necessary if we had sin removed, then we would already be like him. There are many heretical teachings that distort this and other key elements in the Scripture and teach this is a fulfilled promise to us already; it is NOT.
Gal. 3:22: “But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.”
If one looks at the children of God throughout history none have claimed a spiritual condition of sinlessness. Look at Abraham, or Isaac, or Jacob, or Job; Moses, David, Peter, John, or Paul. None of them claimed to be absolutely perfect and not guilty of any act of sin. Paul said he continued to do what he did not want to (Rom.7:15).
His solution to diminish sinning, 1 Cor. 9:27 “But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.” If Paul were Sinless there would be no reason to bring his flesh into submission of the Spirit, it would already be submitted..
If we are sinless as some claim what about these passages?
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (I John 3:9)
This cannot mean we are now sinless. Because it would contradict what he said earlier in chapter one about our sin and confessing it “If we say that WE HAVE NO SIN, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us” (besides we would not die). If we are to take this scripture “Whoever has been born of God does not sin,” to mean absolute holiness and used to refer to the doctrine of absolute perfection; it proves, not that some Christians MAY be perfect, but all of them are, none are excluded. So there is not a special group of over-comers. But this verse does not teach that it is impossible for the Christian to sin. What it does teach is that it is impossible to be begotten of God and go on sinning as we once did.
The new nature battles against the old to overcome it. He who is born again does not CONTINUALLY sin, or is not HABITUALLY a sinner as he was before he came to know Jesus. The born again believer has no compulsion to sin over and over as He once had, driven by his fallen nature. He who is born again will not continue in, or like their sin. If anyone continually and habitually sins and does not feel ill about it, it may prove that he has NEVER been spiritually renewed. If one likes to sin and finds little consequence from it, not being grieved by what they have done they probably need to question if the Holy Spirit has His convicting work in their life. When one is sinning habitually, willfully without feeling any remorse and it does not lead them to repentance but hardens them, this shows that he is under the influence of the one whose nature it has been to sin.
Everyone who has the new birth- has passed from death to life, is not habitually a sinner; but has the power of the indwelling spirit to overcome the temptation of sin.
The wages of sin (payment) is death and saints die just as sinners die. This proves we still have a sin nature along with the new nature.
James explains how sin is birthed. Jm.1:14-15 “but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.” The source of sin doesn’t come from the outside but from within. We are drawn away from our own desires (the Greek means to be lured into a trap). It is not a single act, but a process that begins in our heart. You can say the real source is spiritual heart disease, our fallen human nature. Sin has its roots in the heart and influences the intellect and will and finds expression through the body (Prov.4:3; Mt.15:19-20; Lk.6:45; Heb.3:12.) To say you have no sin is to claim you have not reacted to any temptation. It is a fact that the closer one comes to being in relationship with Jesus Christ the more they will see their sinfulness. To claim one is no longer a sinner in any fashion, and no longer sins, shows how far away they are from the Lord and his word.
The religious leaders thought they were righteous because they obeyed God’s law and yet we see Jesus acknowledge “And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’” (Luke 18:13) Are we not to have the same humble attitude even though we are saved? Of course we are, John says for us to confess our sin to be cleansed (1 Jn.1:9).
Are Saints Sinners?
The Bible itself does say that those who are saved are sinners in that we still sin. Gal. 2:16-17: “knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. “But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners.” Here Paul makes the case that there is only one way to be justified, by faith in Christ. Yet we are still sinners though we have right standing with God. The Bible makes this clear. Sin is still present with the believer, we are in transition to eliminate it once and for all.
Speaking to the church James calls believers sinners (4:8) “Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded.” James makes this clear as he addresses the church, that if someone no longer tries to walk in holiness or turns from the teachings of Christ he is a sinner. James 5:19-20 “Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, (he is addressing brethren) and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.”
For Paul says “Some men’s sins are clearly evident, preceding them to judgment, but those of some men follow later. Likewise, the good works of some are clearly evident, and those that are otherwise cannot be hidden.” (1 Tim 5:24-25) Obviously Paul is making a dichotomy of the believers works (both good and bad) cannot be determined until later. Then we will know those done by the spirit and they will be eternal and those done in sin that will be burned up (according to 1 Cor. 3:13-15)
In Rom. 7:15 Paul describes his and our condition. “For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good.” Here Paul explains his own struggle with sin that is indicative of us all. He does what he does not want to do-sin. And what he wants to do he fails in. He goes on Rom. 7:17 “it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me” V.18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwells no good thing. Notice what Paul says next-V.20Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwells in me. V. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.” Paul says it is “ sin that dwells in me “ twice in this area of Scripture. He then brings it to a conclusion “O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? I thank God– through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.” The body of death is another way of explaining where sin resides
“Being then made free from sin, ye became servants of righteousness” In other words we are no longer under its dominion, for it to be master over us. It does not mean we are relieved of all sin. As someone once said: “those who claim to be sinless, go ask their wives they’ll tell you the truth.”
Rom. 8:21-25 “because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.” It is our hope but not a reality now, so we wait for the body of sin is delivered by the resurrection.
2 Cor. 5:2 “For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven”
Only those who have the new nature know the harm from the old. We groan as we are on earth about our deliverance from the body of death, that brings sin.
1 Cor. 15:54-57: “So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.” “O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?” The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.”
Do we still die? Yes, of course, so this means sin is still present with us. The believer’s sin stops at death when the believer is then released from the body of sin.
To believe we are sinless is as much a lie as Satan telling Eve she will not die.
Only sinful people sin, a perfect righteous man like Jesus could not. To say we have no sin disregards clear scriptures that tell the believers how to conduct themselves and not sin. It is not that we no longer sin but that we are no longer slaves to sin (Rom.6:16-18, 20).
Rom 6:13: “And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousnessto sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.”
We could not have the ability to do this if we were no longer sinners.
Eph. 4:22-2: “that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness. Therefore, putting away lying, “Let each one of you speak truth with his neighbor,” for we are members of one another.” Be angry, and do not sin”: do not let the sun go down on your wrath, nor give place to the devil.” Let him who stole steal no longer…”
Col.3:9-10: “Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him” Why tell the believer what not to do and to obey if we are already doing this?
Rom. 13:13-14: “Let us walk properly, as in the day, not in revelry and drunkenness, not in lewdness and lust, not in strife and envy. But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts.”
2 Cor. 7:1 “Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.”
We are asked to make ourselves clean which would not be a valid point if we are already sinless.
Again Paul makes it clear Rom 7:17-18: “But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.” “But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.” This does not have Paul shirk his responsibility of sin, he does not deny it nor claim he is perfected- sinless.
Want to know if you are sinless? Look at the Law of God and all His commands, if you keep them all perfect all the time then you no longer sinning.
Rom. 6:12-14: “Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.” Why say this if we cannot sin or know sin?
1 Cor. 9:27 “But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.” If Paul were Sinless there would be no reason to bring his flesh into submission of the Spirit.
Gal. 5:16-17 “I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.” Our war is within ourselves with the old nature trying to exercise its strength over the Spirit. Paul tells believers “For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live” (Rom 8:13) the only way to have victory over the flesh and our sinful nature is by walking in the spirit
Scripture teaches that the closer you get to the Lord Jesus Christ in your heart, the more aware you are of you sinfulness and sinful temptations that affect you. It is those who have drifted far away or have self deceived themselves into thinking that sin has nothing to do with their character, this what the Bible calls a lie.
If one insists to hold the position they are truly sinless, in the same manner Jesus was without sin, I must question if they are saved. For one to be saved they must admit they are in need of a savior because of their sin and it is Jesus through the writings of the apostles that tells us we still are sinners.
Scripture testifies every person needs the Savior. It is likely that the heretics whom the apostle John writes against in his epistles denied that they had any sin, thus denying any need for the Savior.
I Jn. 1:8 “If we say that we have NO SIN, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is NOT in us.”
The Bible says we are sinful and need to agree with God on this fact otherwise deceive ourselves. This is the first of three statements “If we say.” John is citing this to directly refute the false claims of the heretics in the church.
9 “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”
If you don’t sin you don’t need the blood to cleanse anymore. The confession of sins, Greek is homologeia which means “to say the same things as” God does about our sin. This is the only prerequisite for our complete forgiveness and cleansing. It should be obvious if you do not sin, then you do not need to confess. But John says to keep on confessing your sin to be cleansed. To NOT confess our sins shows we are not walking in the truth.
10 “If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a .”
If we claim we have not sinned, we make him [God] out to be a liar and his word (which is truth) is not found in us. 1 Peter 1:23 we are not born again by his word
So lets summarize what John is stating:
Verse 8. Profession of sinlessness-self deception-not of truth-equals living a lie.
Verse 9. No confession of sin-Divine cleansing is denied -no removal of condemnation.
Verse 10. Denying we have sinned, means we are calling God a LIAR, and His truth does not reside in us.”
Renouncing sin is our greatest proof of our spiritual union with the Lord. The regenerate person cannot sin as he did before he was born of God, and as others do who are not born again. The more one grows closer to a holy God the more they see their creatureness and sinful nature compared His perfect one. If one claims they no longer sin they have not seen nor heard from God and are a LIAR. Denial of being a sinner is tantamount to calling God a LIAR, thus we have no revelation of the truth. John refutes the error that we have no sin nature, by using the word sin in the singular. It is not just the committal of sin but the principle of sin, sin in a general sense, sin of every description. There are those who profess to have become perfectly sanctified, and to live without any sin. If we say that we have no sin, we are truly deceived, self deception is a special kind of delusion brought on by ones own pride (James 3:2,5).
And John says prior in v.7 that we have no fellowship with the believers and his blood is not cleansing us of sin. This is quite serious. One must admit they are a sinner to be in reality as well as have a walk with Christ that is in truth. This is why when someone says they have sinlessness there is no fellowship with the believers or Christ.
All have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; this means that if you claim to not have sin you have God’s glory, which for all intensive purposes makes you God. There is only one who has lived without sin- Jesus. If you are without sin then you are just as perfect as Jesus, in both thought and deed. Claiming to live without any sin shows that one is deceived in regard to himself and his relationship to the Lord God. Again this makes himself to be equal with God who alone exists is in a perfect state, having no sin.
We have the righteousness of Christ as a garment but we do not have only his new nature. He has not transformed us into being sinless, like he is, YET. I John 3:2 “it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed,we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.”
God looks at us as being sinless through Christs’ righteousness and his sacrifice on the cross. We are positionally righteous but are in reality working out our sanctification. And that is how our life will be on earth.
You may get these sinless concepts from teachers and books, but not from the teachers or writers in 66 books of the Bible
Well covered in that scripture after scripture tells us how to overcome SIN – THE FLESH and the DEVIL. The scripture divides the whole human race into two groups. It uses several different terms. For example Saints & Sinners, the Righteous and the Wicked, The Redeemed and the Lost, The New Man & the Old Man. This is a small token of what the scripture uses to show that there is both a difference in Character and Position and Outcome. You have quoted sufficient scripture to make it appear that on the one hand – He that is born of God sinneth not for His seed is in him. On the other hand, If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. What if the real Truth of all these scriptures combined would show us that on the one hand – God made a New Creation in us that resides in our Spirit which made it alive unto God. That our body will be redeemed with a new body at the ressurection and in the mean time our mind is being renewed to deal with the fact that God wants to rule our person through our Spirits, not through our Soul. And the full provision for all sin for all men for all time was settled in the atonement on the cross. Thus God can do the unthinkable – justify sinners. WE like the catchy phrase – “just as if I’d never sinned”. But that is the very power of the cross for in the end, it is not what we think about sin or sinners that counts. It is what God thinks that counts and stands. When the scripture says for us to “reckon” something, it really means for us to agree with God on this matter. Reckon yourselves Dead unto sin but alive unto Christ is a “Faith Statement”. We either conclude we are still Sinners because we saw sin in our lives or we believed God and received His remedy as we walk in faith. When we begin to see that walking by faith (Our simple agreeing with God on how He see’s these matters and all else) is counted in our lives as Righteousness.So now His Laws are being written on the heart by His Spirit and we fullfill His requirements of us.That is what trusting Christ as you Saviour is really all about. It is not about keeping laws or commandments per se, it is about walking by faith in submission to God and the voice of the Holy Spirit within who leads us into ALL TRUTH. And this is true for every believer.
Thank you, Hoyt.
Well said.
Blessings
shepherdguardian,
I hope you weren’t under the impression that I agree with Johnson (click on my name and you’ll see I’m one of the biggest Bill Johnson/Bethel critics). I was merely quoting him to add to your stance that Bethel’s teaching on sin/sinlessness is also inconsistent, in addition to being unbiblical and heretical. Obviously, sin has not been “yanked out by its roots” as Johnson asserts.
I mention that we can actually be sinless for a very short duration as that is certainly possible, but for very short durations. That is, if we are 100% submitted to the Spirit, say perhaps for a brief period during prayer. However, since we never have leave of the sin nature this side of glory, we are never truly sinless, even if we are not actually sinning for a nanosecond. So, I don’t say this to agree with Bill Johnson/Bethel, as I definitely disagree. However, we must concede the possibility of very limited times of being sinless IF we are 100% submitted to the Spirit for a given – obviously very short – period of time. That’s Paul’s point in Romans 7-8 and Galatians 5:16-26 – our war against the flesh which is only won by submitting to the Holy Spirit. Yet, Johnson wishes to take Paul’s points too far.
Does that clarify things?
Let me take one Biblical example. In the 7th chapter of Acts is Stephen’s speech followed by his stoning. It’s clear that Stephen was a vehicle through which the Holy Spirit spoke, i.e., Stephen was submitted to the Spirit. And, he apparently was fully submitted to the Spirit during his stoning. Therefore, it seems Stephen was without sin during that time (that is, he was sinless), yet that doesn’t change the fact that Stephen, like all of humankind, had the sin nature and was therefore a sinful human being. Yet this inherently sinful human was apparently without sin, being fully submitted to the Holy Spirit, during the events of Acts 7.
On the other hand, I suppose one could argue that Stephen may have had one or more fleeting sinful thoughts during his speech. While this would be an argument from silence, I do suppose it possible. However, I think the events of Acts 7:59-60 indicate full submission to the Spirit during that time.
What do you think?
Well done, Craig.
We are in agreement.
Please forgive me for seeming as though we were not in agreement before. I was reinforcing what you had already explained.
These guys find it so easy to twist The Scriptures to lure the Scripturally immature into false teaching. My fear is for those who have been so deceived.
Here’s a choice Joyce Meyers quote on the same topic.
“I’m going to tell you something folks, I didn’t stop sinning until I finally got it through my thick head I wasn’t a sinner anymore. And the religious world thinks that’s heresy and they want to hang you for it. But the Bible says that I’m righteous and I can’t be righteous and be a sinner at the same time.”
“Now whether you like it or not, whether you want to admit it or not, whether you want to operate on it or not, you are made the righteousness of God in Jesus Christ. Most people who go to denominational churches never ever hear that! They never hear it! Never! All I was ever taught to say was, ‘I’m a poor, miserable sinner.’ I am not poor, I am not miserable and I am not a sinner. That is a lie from the pit of hell. That is what I was and if I still am then Jesus died in vain. Amen?” (Joyce Meyer, “What Happened from the Cross to The Throne?” audio)
Incredible, isn’t it?
Blessings!
I have enjoyed my visit and have learned much from your teaching. I shall return.
The right way to refute people like Johnson and Vallotton, who do teach errors, and who are rather conceited, is not by responding with error. This article can no more prove Christians are now “sinners” than it could prove vallotton has perfect doctrine. Christians are NEVER called sinners in the Bible, but SAINTS–Greek-Hagios, HOLY ONES. The are called many wonderful, holy, precious names by God. We WERE sinners. 1John 1:8-10 no more calls a believer a sinner than any other verse. How weak! Part of Biblical teaching is not only to resist sin and obey God, but because of who we are now in Christ, to not walk in our former lives. Who are we now? We are light, salt, followers of him, sheep, disciples, beloved, blameless, holy ones, etc.
Sorry, but Bethel is mostly right about this point. And the converse has kept Christians defeated and weak. It has promoted antinomianism. It fits with Once Save Always Saved heresy of all heresies. We warn people of Bethel, and I esp loathe the attitudes and errors of Kris Vallotton in particular, having read one of his ridiculous books, and seeing him speak twice and rebuking him on his blog, of which he made it impossible to comment on. But you guys are wrong.
If you can not sin for a minute, you can not sin for 2,3,5,10 an hour, two hours, a day and so forth. The Holy Spirit is stronger than sin, our new nature is stronger, and our love and fear of God should push us through to victory. Anything less is not christianity
“Truth Preacher”:
If you can not sin for a minute, you can not sin for 2,3,5,10 an hour, two hours, a day and so forth….
Good luck with THAT! Just reading the Sermon on the Mount should be sobering.
So, what do you make of Paul’s words in Romans 7, and then his follow-up in Romans 8? Galatians 5:16-26? Obviously, we have a sinful nature and, as Christians, we also have the Holy Spirit. So, we have a second by second choice to make: either submit to the Spirit, or live by the flesh. If you truly think you can live for more than a second or two (not speaking of sleeping) without having an impure thought or otherwise sinning, then I’d say you’re guilty of the sin of pride.
I think you are a brainwashed American, who has spent most of his life watching filth, and now thinks everyone’s mind is as polluted as his. Your attitude towards this is so unbiblical and so shocking. Paul said we take EVERY THOUGHT CAPTIVE to the obedience of Christ-2cor. 10:4. Paul also said
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
You don’t believe that. I do and I know it is true. Romans 7 is about Paul’s experience under the law. That is not his exp as a Christian. You need to read Charles Finney, John Wesley for awhile to get your mind straight Sin is not more powerful that God!
Hey T.P.,
We’re going to need to make a distinction between a few things here.
In an “eternal” sense, we are, indeed, completely forgiven of all sin; past, present and future.
However, in a “temporal” sense (while still alive and breathing), we DO fall into sin. We can play word games and semantics all day long but the fact is that if we sin we are, in that moment, sinning and, therefore, a sinner.
One who eats is an eater.
One who runs is a runner.
One who sins IS a sinner.
I am not denying for a moment that God, through Paul, calls us “saints”…and that designation is still applicable while we are in the act of being a sinner while sinning.
Positionally we are eternally forgiven “saints”. But that does not change our present sinful choices into something else.
Why else would there be any Scripture concerning sanctification after conversion?
Blessings
How about you take some of Paul’s advise (or do you believe that signs and wonders movement was false too) and just praise God that Jesus is being preached.
Some, to be sure, are preaching Christ even from envy and strife, but some also from good will; the latter do it out of love, knowing that I am appointed for the defense of the gospel; the former proclaim Christ out of selfish ambition rather than from pure motives, thinking to cause me distress in my imprisonment. What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed; and in this I rejoice. Yes, and I will rejoice, for I know that this will turn out for my deliverance through your prayers and the provision of the Spirit of Jesus Christ, (Philippians 1:15-19 NASB)
Chris,
Yes, I believe the “signs and wonders movement” is false, but I most certainly believe in miracles, signs and wonders.
Eastern religions, metaphysical cults and the New Spirituality all claim miracles, signs and wonders. The same also claims to have a “Christ”, but he is a false Christ (cf. 2 Cor 11:4, 14-15).
If the true Jesus Christ of the Bible is preached, then, even if I may find Scriptural disagreement on a minor issue, I’ll not stand against them. However, if a different Jesus is proclaimed – as Bill Johnson does – then, I will most certainly take a stand against such an individual or individuals. And, I’ve definitely taken a strong stand against Bill Johnson, exposing his teachings as the falsehoods they are, rooted more in a New Age / New Spirituality Christ than the Jesus Christ of Scripture.
To whom are you speaking?
“Truth Preacher”:
It seems you may have failed to understand why I used quotation marks around your screen name. Evidence of your own pride and hypocrisy are right in your screen name – your name sure seems to say that YOU have the corner on “Truth”. Yet not a single one of us do. This is why the body has many different members (Rom 12:4-5).
Reading Romans 7-8 in the full context of the letter in its entirety and/or consulting most reputable commentaries will reveal that Paul was speaking about himself in the present tense as a believer in the latter part of chapter 7:
14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out….So, then I myself in my mind an a slave to God’s law but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin. [Rom 7:14-18, 25; NIV]
The words “I am” denote present tense, i.e. Paul was speaking this as a ‘born again’ believer who yet still struggled with sin because of the sin nature “living in me”. The phrase “sold as a slave to sin” makes the fact that Paul was indeed ‘born again/from above’ obvious (otherwise, “sold” to whom or what?), yet still struggled with the sin nature. The Mosaic Law of which Paul speaks, while no longer condemning him to spiritual death, was yet still applicable in the sense that Law convicts of the sin that does and will still beset him (“Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the Law”: v 7:7; “in order that sin might be recognized as sin”: v 7:13) – as it does all of us. But then Romans 8 depicts life by the Spirit, i.e., submitting to the Spirit instead of the flesh.
If you doubt that the above is correct, go over to Philippians 3:12-16, for example. Clearly Paul recognized that even he had a ways to go in his spiritual walk:
12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13 Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.
15 All of us, then, who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you. 16 Only let us live up to what we have already attained.
All of this points to the tension that is in the time in which we live – between Christ’s first Coming and His Second. This eschatological tension is highlighted here. Most scholars call this the already but not yet. That is, just like we are ALREADY seated with Christ in the heavenly realms (Eph 2:6), we are, in actuality, NOT YET. It’s a future promise. We will one day have the ability to live totally without sin, but not until the eschaton, not until we receive our non-flesh-and-blood bodies (1 Cor 15:44-56).
If you are yet STILL not convinced, just witness the passages that encourage us to stay in the faith (1 Cor 16:13-14; Heb 12:4-13; James 1:2-8). If sin was really defeated, then obviously we would have absolutely no trouble walking in faith.
Well said, Craig.
Blessings
Hi Craig, its pretty hard to argue with scripture, unless of course you are willingly blind, that is directed to our TRUTH preacher. I have no doubt having spoken to Bethel people and their franchise over here, that it is not possible for them to accept what you have put forward, outside of repentance which is something they don’t believe in, what a trap.
You might talk to someone in person and notice a dull sort of glaze, the word flows off them like water off a ducks back.Good analogy really as they are very feather oriented.
blessings from down under, Oskar
Oskar,
Good to see here. Hope all is well.
This is not well said, it is nonsense. First Craig starts out with a personal attack on me based on my User Name. These accusations of pride are false, and actually, the one making them is full of pride, because who else but someone stung by my BIBLICAL remarks, would react in such a hostile way? Pride is the root of sin. Since Craig boasts that he SINS ALL DAY LONG, EVERY SECOND OF THE DAY, 24/7, he is very proud.
I like what that great, holy man and soulwinner Charles Finney said about Romans 7. He said that if THAT is your experience, you were either never saved or you are backslid. But such is not the Christian experience. Romans 6 and 8 describe the Christian experience. and Romans 7:14-25 absolutely contradicts chapters 6 and 8. The reason is found in verse one–I speak to them who know that LAW. Then he shows how living under THE LAW was for Paul. It is obviously. The use of the present tense is for rhetorical effect, and is well know for that time.
But when we get to chapter 8, Paul concludes:
8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Pay attention. There is therefore NOW…well in light of 7:14-25, the NOW proves it was about his experience under the law, as does the fact that those in Christ WALK in the Spirit, not in the flesh, and it further says ANOTHER LAW makes us FREE from the law of sin and death. What law of sin and death? The one described previous in chapter 7. NOW we are SET FREE from it, and walk according to another law–the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. Then Paul further tells us:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Notice, those who walk after the flesh–their choice, MIND the things of the flesh, like Craig does. But those who walk after the Spirit, a real Christian’s choice, MIND the things of the Spirit. Period. By Craig’s own words, he is in the flesh and CANNOT please God:
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Amen!
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Exactly, Whenever I speak to a religious person who is carnally minded, they can NEVER submit to the law of God, the words of God and the truth of God. They make excuses for the rebellion and sin.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
That would be Craig
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Notice, Christians ARE NOT IN THE FLESH, BUT IN THE SPIRIT,…….if if if the Spirit of Christ is in you. Well since Craig testifies to being in the flesh all day long everyday, the Spirit of Christ must not be in him, and he is deceived.
Repent Craig. Instead of attacking me with FALSE ACCUSATIONS, which is LYING, which is sinful, which you pretend you can’t help, you should listen. You are deceived. Your are not “positionally” righteous. That legal fiction is taught nowhere in the Bible. Only those who abide in Christ, who is our righteousness, are righteous. Those who sin are of the Devil. No? Listen to John::
1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that DOETH righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil;
“Truth Preacher”:
Setting aside your view that I “attacked” you personally by pointing out the pride inherent in your moniker (but you did call me a “brainwashed American”, which I did not address initially), what about the substance in the remainder of my comment?
You made the comment that I “sin every second of the day”, yet even my initial comment on this thread I wrote:
…While I’m confident there are moments in which a true believer can be sinless, I’m also quite confident that those moments are not very longlasting, perhaps only seconds in duration.
So, “Instead of attacking me with FALSE ACCUSATIONS, which is LYING, which is sinful…” – using your own words here – let’s look at my words in all their context.
You can rely on Finney (shaky ground as there are quite a few who’ve shown aspects of his teachings as faulty – his Pelagianism as one example), but I’ll rely on more learned scholars. Since you are convinced of your view on Romans 7-8, then what do you make of Paul’s very explicit statement in Romans 6:1-2?
What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 7By no means! We died to sin; how do we live in it any longer?
This explicitly states that we could conceivably sin though regenerate (what else would “grace” refer to?). Obviously, we are not to be <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antinomianism"antinomian, but then we obviously have the possibility OF sin. In fact, you did concede this point above:
…Notice, those who walk after the flesh–their choice, MIND the things of the flesh…But those who walk after the Spirit, a real Christian’s choice, MIND the things of the Spirit. Period.
Yes, it’s a CHOICE we must consciously make to live by the Spirit rather than the sin nature. But if you think you can be sinless for some indefinite period, you are deceived. Also, what do you make of the other Scriptures I cited above (Phil 3:12-16; 1 Cor 16:13-14; James 1:2-8; Heb 12:4-13), that is, how do they square with your view that any true Christian has the capacity to not sin for great lengths, if at all?
And, for the record the Apostle John is talking to those who are unregenerate, and hence cannot help but sin (this in one breath is your accusation of me, though you also stated in contradiction with regard to sin “…which you pretend you can’t help, you should listen…”) in those Scriptures you cited.
If your view were true, then certainly the first century Apostles would not have not any disagreements among themselves (Paul rebuking Peter in Galatians 2; Paul, Barnabas, Silas, and Mark in Acts 15:36-41). I would suppose, in your view, since Peter was sinning and legitimately rebuked by Paul and then Paul, Barnabas, Silas, and Mark were guilty of sin, then they “are of the Devil”.
Bottom line: though we still possess the sin nature, we are to live by the Spirit and hence not sin; yet, since we are not yet perfected, we WILL undoubtedly sin. And, while I think you are deceived if you think you can be sinless for long durations, I’ve not charged you with being unregenerate as you have me. That’s a charge one should not just throw around. In fact, I detect anger in your post, which IS sin.
Anger is NOT sin. Christ looked on people with anger-Mark 3:5. God was OFTEN ANGRY with Israel. Your false doctrines make a sinner out of God and His Christ. Matt 5:22 says if you are angry with your brother WITHOUT CAUSE, you are in trouble. Eph 4:29 says BE ANGRY, and sin not. As anyone reading can see, I preach the Bible, I preach the truth. I am a truth-preacher. I don’t preach my opinions or manmade doctrines to justify sin, like you do.
As for my username, there is nothing wrong with it. Your accusation of detecting pride in it is rather delusional, and a testimony to the pride of your heart in pretending to be so spiritual as to have picked that up! You admit you sin all day long, therefore you can’t hear God. You poisoned the well with that remark.
You complain that I said you sound like a brainwashed American who has corrupted himself with tv, movies, etc. Well, HAVE YOU? Are you the typical American Christian who sits in front of those talking idols watching sin, entertaining yourself with sin??? Yes or no?
As to this “sin-nature” MYTH, you need to stop using that unbiblical term. There is no such thing as a “sin nature”. That term is used as an excuse for sin. The Bible teaches we have flesh, and that flesh has A LAW IN IT that operates to get us to disobey God. It is the law of sin and death in our members. We don’t have a “sin-nature”. Paul said our bodies are holy, to be presented as holy, that our bodies ARE THE TEMPLE OF GOD, that the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord, and the Lord is for the body!
Rom 6 says WE ARE DEAD TO SIN. How can a dead man sin??? Paul then said we are FREE INDEED FROM SIN. What about that? You contradict this plain Bible teaching. Of course a believer can be tempted to sin, and then sin, but your antinomian doctrine is that we MUST SIN, WE CAN’T HELP BUT SIN, AND WE SIN ALL DAY LONG, EXCEPT FOR A FEW SECONDS!
That teaching is from the Devil not God. God said be holy. God said if you are not, you will not see God. Period.
And your calloused dismissal of John’s words won’t work. John said to believers not to let anyone deceive us. Only other religious people could do that, pretending to be, or delusionally thinking they are Christians. John said the person who DOES RIGHTEOUSNESS is the one who IS righteous, The ones who go on sinning have NOT SEEN HIM, NOR KNOWN HIM. Period.
Charles Finney was a godly, holy, anointed man and soulwinner, who would accomplish more for the Lord in one day that you can in a thousand. His opinion is far more worthy than yours. Exegetically, he is right, you are wrong. Rom 7:14-25 is the refuge of hypocrites who won’t face the truth.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
John makes it plain how we know who is of God. Those who do not do righteousness are not of God.
1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
So, do you claim to know Him?
So you keep His commandments, yes or no?
I messed up the tag above; it should be:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antinomianism
“Truth Preacher”:
There’s a difference between righteous indignation and sinful anger. Ephesians 4:26 states, “in your anger do not sin”, implying that one can either sin or not sin in one’s anger. The venom with which you spew forth your accusations hardly qualifies as not sin, no matter how much you wish to claim your view is wholly Biblical, while mine is false. And yet still you fail to address the specific Scriptures I brought up a second time.
You wrote, after I bring up your initial “brainwashed American” comment: Are you the typical American Christian who sits in front of those talking idols watching sin, entertaining yourself with sin??? Yes or no?
The question is laughable. I’m over the 50 year mark, in my adult years I didn’t even OWN a TV until I was 30, and I watch it occasionally for NEWS. I see or hear the occasional reference to ‘Game of Thrones’ and I’ve no idea what this even is. I’ve watched American Idol exactly ONCE and that was when I was visiting my young nephew. I don’t have an IPad or IPhone. I’m not even sure why I’m bothering to answer you, though, as I certainly don’t owe you an explanation.
Some Bible versions use “sin nature” or “sinful nature” at times for “flesh”, but if you prefer “flesh”, then fine. How about the manner in which it’s used here in Galatians 5:16-26?:
16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law…
25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.
Obviously, a compare and contrast, and the point is that the ‘born again’ believer yet still HAS the flesh (sin nature) with which we must choose not to yield to, instead yielding to the Spirit.
You wrote, Charles Finney was a godly, holy, anointed man and soulwinner, who would accomplish more for the Lord in one day that you can in a thousand.
Obviously, you don’t know me (as witness my response to your question above re: TV), and, I’m not sure you ‘know’ Finney based upon what you’ve written about him (do you reverence him as an idol?). Bob DeWaay has written an article on Finney:
http://cicministry.org/commentary/issue53.htm
…noting some of his doctrinal problems. Here’s the section on Christian Perfection:
That brings us to the final tenet of Pelagianism that has its counterpart in Finney’s teaching — Christian perfection. After showing what it is not, he states his definition of Christian perfection in its simple form: “It is perfect obedience to the law of God.”19 That such obedience is remotely possible can only be appreciated by his concept of the simplicity of moral action. Humans are only actuated by one principle at any given time: either that of selfishness or “disinterested benevolence.”20 If it is possible for the later to be true, what logic would prevent it from continually being the case?
Finney’s biographers indicate that Finney came to this teaching out of his disappointment that converts of his revivals had not made the progress he expected and that the church had not prevailed in the world as he hoped. For example, G. Frederick Wright, who wrote as a professor at Oberlin in 1891 (where Finney was previously a professor of theology), comments on Finney’s motives to write Lectures to Professing Christians, which express his views on perfection: “At the same time, his mind felt with increasing keenness the necessity of a higher state of consecration on the part of the church, if Christianity was ultimately to prevail in the world.”21 Charles Hambrick-Stowe recounts the fact that controversy attended this teaching, but that one supporter thought that it would usher in the millennium.22
I’m sure that some of his converts were false ones, as should be expected given Matthew 13; but, you obviously follow his distorted view of Christian perfection. Finney’s view above is followed by his disbelief in the basic sinful condition of mankind (Adamic guilt), which is a part of Pelagianism; and, it’s this Pelagian belief that may have led to more false converts in the first place.
While I certainly believe that one should submit to the Spirit in order to be holy, I also recognize that we are going to be in the flesh at times. When these do occur, we should repent. I hardly consider sin ‘no big deal’, as you’ve attempted to portray me. I freely admit that my motives are sometimes mixed, though try as I may to not let this be so (by submitting to the Spirit).
I refuted your PLAIN STATEMENT that “anger is sin” You said it. It is FALSE. I know people who teach this, and they are WRONG, as are you.
Second, there is no “anger” is my responses anymore than there is pride in my User-Name. Both of these accusations are false. Perhaps you ought to follow your own advice. You have made absurd accusations.
As for what you look at–well then your problem with sin is inexplicable, unless you grew up looking at Playboy and the other filth that followed. There is NO REASON for you to be a vocal apologist FOR SIN, and you ought not diminish THE POWER OF GOD in a believer’s life. You keep harping about the mythical “sin-nature” but say NOTHING about the NEW NATURE believers receive!
What are you so focused on sin and sinning? Your doctrine is so unlike the Bible, so unlike Paul, that is it only natural to wonder if you are really regenerate.
I don’t care what Bob Dewaay says about Finney. Another powerless critic of Finney, so what? I challenged that man to a debate years ago about Finney, and he declined, even though I said I would come on up to Minnesota and debate before his whole church. I know Finney well. I have studied him for thirty years, and I can refute his lying critics easily.
Finney preached holiness and victory in Christ. You don’t. You preach carnality, sin, defeat and unholiness. You are an antinomian.
Now you want to change the subject to Finney’s views on Entire Sanctification, which has been taught in the Bible, in the ENTIRE ANTE-NICENE CHURCH, in many remnant groups afterwards, but the Methodists, running into tens of millions and many other groups. It is the ORTHODOX VIEW.
1Th 5:22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.
1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Th 5:24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.
As if Paul would pray for what is unscriptural! Paul said God was faithful and WILL DO IT! You say He won’t.
1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
What you are picking up in my posts is ZEAL, and a hatred for the false doctrine you teach. I hate it because God hates it. Holy hatred is from God:
Psa_97:10 Ye that love the LORD, hate evil: he preserveth the souls of his saints; he delivereth them out of the hand of the wicked.
Psa_101:3 I will set no wicked thing before mine eyes: I hate the work of them that turn aside; it shall not cleave to me.
Psa_119:104 Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way.
Psa_119:113 I hate vain thoughts: but thy law do I love.
Psa_119:128 Therefore I esteem all thy precepts concerning all things to be right; and I hate every false way.
Psa_119:163 I hate and abhor lying: but thy law do I love.
“Truth Preacher”:
I can see that since you yourself have the corner on “truth” (and perhaps a select few others like you), there is no point in continued discussion. I sure hope that one day I’ll be as perfect as you.
This is TEXTBOOK. You make MORE FALSE ACCUSATIONS about me and what I believe, and then you mock. This is a CONCESSION that you have LOST THIS DEBATE. You won’t admit it, of course, but when someone goes this low for an “answer”, the debate is over. So, do you think you can’t help but LIE ABOUT people who disagree with you and are capable of refuting you? Is this your position, that you are a liar, and can’t help it? I will agree you are a liar, but you can help it. Your problem is you have a doctrine that not only absolves you from doing so, but teaches you really can’t help yourself. How pitiful
Thou doth protesteth to much, methinks…
I am a critic of Bethel Redding/Bill Johnson and Jesus Culture, and have a few posts about them on my blog. They have done much worse things such as the glory cloud incident where they put cheap ‘made in china’ glitter into the AC vent and billed it as the presence of God, in the same way as the cloud around the ancient Israelites…
They also believe that the kingdom of God will soon be instituted fully in Redding and invade the world starting there…
False teaching for sure.
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THIS ARTICLE IS SPREADING LIES! I attended Bethel Church for three years and completed their School of Ministry and that was never uttered once from the pulpit or anywhere. What they teach is that Christ helps you become a better person so that you won’t want to sin and therefore we become saints, not sinners. We WERE sinners saved by grace, not we ARE sinners. They’ve never EVER preached that you will never sin again. Both Pastor Bill Johnson and Pastor Kris Vallotton both are critical of sin. Pastor Kris has a whole ministry called Moral Revolutions dedicated to bring purity into people’s lives.
Whoever wrote this article should be ashamed of themselves for judging someone. God makes it clear all throughout the Bible that we are to judge the fruits. Look at what is happening at Bethel: healings, miracles, salvations, the poor being fed, housed, training up the five-fold ministry, etc.
lonestarjake88:
So, then what do you make of these two quotes from two separate Bill Johnson books?
Jacob,
We’re going to need to make a distinction between a few things here.
In an “eternal” sense, we are, indeed, completely forgiven of all sin; past, present and future.
However, in a “temporal” sense (while still alive and breathing), we DO fall into sin. We can play word games and semantics all day long but the fact is that if we sin we are, in that moment, sinning and, therefore, a sinner.
One who eats is an eater.
One who runs is a runner.
One who sins IS a sinner.
I am not denying for a moment that God, through Paul, calls us “saints”…and that designation is still applicable while we are in the act of being a sinner while sinning.
Positionally we are eternally forgiven “saints”. But that does not change our present sinful choices into something else.
Reformed Theology would say hold these two thing together. We are “both, and”. In other words, I am a forgiven saint but I am also a sinner.
Why else would there be any Scripture concerning sanctification after conversion?
Blessings
This is all false. The Bible simply doesn’t back up your ideas. Deformed theology teaches Once Saved Always Saved. That is a blatant false doctrine. You are NOT eternally forgiven. All sin is paid for. But it is not forgiven until repentance. Hitler’s sins were paid for, but not forgiven. Christians who backslide are LOST and called SINNERS by James-5:19, but believers are called SAINTS, who when they had sinned, Paul reminded the Corinthians that because they were SAINTS and had a new identity, not “positionally” but A REAL CHANGE in nature and status, that sin was beneath them and part of their DEAD AND BURIED PAST LIFE.
But this LIE that our sins are forgiven, past present and future is a damnable antinomian heresy that PROMOTES SIN and excuses it in a believer’s life, AND everyone I have ever known espousing this lie has always been a hypocrite, living in sin, refusing to repent and consider his ways, or the Fear of the Lord.
Sinner In The Hands Of Angry Saints
from R.C. Sproul Jr.
One of the weaknesses that may come from communicating via social media is that we not only speak in short hand, but react in short hand. That is, our answers haven’t the time or characters to be nuanced, and so neither is the thought that goes into them. Our minds are less a well-ordered shelf of careful books, more a stack of broad-brushed memes.
I have sensed this of late due to the responses I have received in making affirmations along two related but different paths. Persuaded I need to enter more deeply into this reality, I have been posting about my own sin. Here is a tweet from Independence Day—I hold this truth to be self evident, that I, like all men, think myself the equal of God. And so I declare my dependence on His grace. I received much the same push back I receive every time I refer to myself as a sinner. Seems that’s a no-no. Now it may well be that the word “sinner” is only used in the New Testament to describe those outside the faith. Such does not mean, however, that it cannot legitimately also be used this way—Sinner, n, 1. One who sins. It may be important that we remember that we are redeemed, forgiven, but it is likewise important to remember that we need to be redeemed and forgiven. It may be important to remember all that we are in Christ, but it is important as well to remember what we are in ourselves.
In like manner I have found myself dangling over a pit of indignation every time I say something positive about the law of God. I recently tweeted this—The Christian life is not choosing grace over law. It is instead exhibiting grace by law. Apparently there is an app that sets off alarms in the homes and minds of some folks any time the law is spoken of in a positive manner. I have been scolded, chastened, insulted, everything short of being called a sinner or a law-breaker for speaking well of the law. You know, like David, Jesus, James and Paul did. Of course our obedience won’t earn God’s favor. Of course we have nothing to offer. Of course circumcision will avail nothing. But friends, we are in trouble with God because we have broken His law. We don’t do what He wants us to do. And when we are redeemed, one of the things we are redeemed to is obedience. Obedience to what you ask? His law. We can dicker over whether He commands us to do this or that. But surely we should be able to agree that whatever He commands, that we must do.
It is a great thing to rejoice in our standing as saints before the throne of God. It is a joyful thing to know that God’s peace with us is not dependent on nor grounded in our obedience to His law. It is, however, a bad thing to forget that though we are in Christ, sin has not yet been completely eradicated from our lives. It is a bad thing to forget that sin is a failure to do what God commands, or to do what He forbids. Let us, as He forgets our sin, forget its curse. But let us confess its presence. And let’s not, due to our truncated means of discourse, embrace a truncated theology.
Sinner in the Hand of Angry Saints was originally published at RCSproulJr.com
That’s “nice”.
Genuine Christianity and Repentance with Joy
by Mike Ratliff
1 Παρακαλῶ οὖν ὑμᾶς, ἀδελφοί, διὰ τῶν οἰκτιρμῶν τοῦ θεοῦ παραστῆσαι τὰ σώματα ὑμῶν θυσίαν ζῶσαν ἁγίαν εὐάρεστον τῷ θεῷ, τὴν λογικὴν λατρείαν ὑμῶν· 2 καὶ μὴ συσχηματίζεσθε τῷ αἰῶνι τούτῳ, ἀλλὰ μεταμορφοῦσθε τῇ ἀνακαινώσει τοῦ νοὸς εἰς τὸ δοκιμάζειν ὑμᾶς τί τὸ θέλημα τοῦ θεοῦ, τὸ ἀγαθὸν καὶ εὐάρεστον καὶ τέλειον. (Romans 12:1,2 NA28)
1 Therefore, I urge you brothers through the compassions of God to present your bodies as living, holy sacrifices, well pleasing to God, which is your spiritual service. 2 And do not be conformed to this age, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind that you may discern the will of God, that which is good and well pleasing and perfect. (Romans 12:1-2 translated from the NA28 Greek text)
Deception is our enemy’s most powerful weapon. When a person is deceived into believing a lie they are not intending to participate in something that is wrong. No, they believe they have the truth and all those who oppose what they believe are just wrong. When the lie leads people to believe that their form of ‘religion’ is true Christianity, regardless of how unbiblical it is, they are not actually intending to be evil following an evil system. They are ‘sure’ they have the truth. They are sincere. I am sure the priests of Baal whom Elijah defeated at Mount Carmel were sincere as well.
For the last several years with the advent of the ‘seeker-sensitive’ and church growth movements, those whose consciences were bound to the Word of God have been raising the alarm that the ‘religion’ within these movements is not genuine Christianity. However, the spiritual forces behind them are very powerful. There are whole cities and towns in the U.S. right now where not one church remains that has not been compromised by this deception. Since the focus within these churches is wrong we find that solid biblical doctrine is replaced with self-improvement, self-help, entertainment, and a recreation of God in the form that man wants. A very good exposition of this can be found here. This Moralistic Therapeutic Deism religion is based around the following five points.
A God exists who created and orders the world and watches over human life on earth.
God wants people to be good, nice, and fair to each other, as taught in the Bible and by most world religions.
The central goal of life is to be happy and to feel good about oneself.
God does not need to be particularly involved in one’s life except when he is needed to resolve a problem.
Good people go to heaven when they die.
When I presented the gospel to my daughter when she was about 9 years old, I asked her some diagnostic questions about her understanding of salvation. These five points are pretty much what her ‘default’ religion was. She loved church. She loved Sunday school. She loved Jesus, but she had no concept of sin and hell. She understood that good people went to heaven and mean people did not. Who is responsible in this system for one’s salvation? It is each person. God is not involved. What does this do in relation to ones sanctification? Well, first, these people who believe that this ‘religion’ is equivalent to genuine Christianity will consider doctrinal words such as justification and sanctification as simply attempts by others to put them under some form of legalism. Since point 3 is what these people are all about, they react violently and vehemently against all clear Biblical teachings that teach that man’s chief end is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever. No, they hate that one since their conception is that it is all about them.
Most genuine believers I know have a horror or revulsion when encountering sin, especially sin that had clung so close them before their salvation. This reaction happens because genuine Christians understand that it is sin that caused their Lord to go to the cross. He suffered and died because of these sins. Notice that all professing Christians do not react to sin this way. In fact, some don’t understand why some us make such a big deal about it. Hence, those who profess to be Christians, but demand that we include and affirm “Gay Christians.” They insist that our stance puts these “wonderful fellow Christians” into bondage to these sins producing shame in the face of the standard of personal holiness. Well, Yeah, that is true, that is how the preaching of the Law and Gospel works.
Carefully consider that last paragraph my brethren. What do we find in the Bible? Is there one mention in Sacred Scripture of support groups such as AA? No, the Bible does not mess around with calling sins addictions. No, sin is sin and victory is found in repentance. John Owen understood how to find victory over besetting sins my brethren. He wrote about it a great deal. His best-known work dealing with this is The Mortification of Sin. In this little book, Owen’s thesis is that sin is a living thing within each of us. After salvation we are given the duty by God to wrestle with it and do battle with it with the goal of seeing it lying dead at our feet just before we breath our last and go to be with our Lord forever. Owen’s scriptural base for this book, actually a series of sermons, is Romans 8:13.
13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. (Romans 8:13 NASB)
Imagine that my brethren. God gives us right here in this very powerful verse why so many professing Christians are unable to find victory over their sin and why others do. What is it? Those who find themselves constantly partaking of the sin “which clings so closely” (Hebrews 12:1-2) are neglecting what is holy while pursuing what is of the flesh.
1 Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. (Hebrews 12:1-2 NASB)
To live according to the flesh is to not live by the Spirit. Those who live by the Spirit put to death the deeds of the body. Those who live according to the flesh are consumed by an overwhelming drive to satiate the desires of the flesh. The writer of Hebrews tells us that victory over that is found as we ‘lay aside every weight and sin which clings so closely.’ However, it does not stop there. Instead of being weighed down by desire, we run with endurance the race that is set before us. We must do both. If we try to run the race while being consumed by fleshly pursuits then we will fail miserably. If we try to stop sinning but neglect running the race God has set before us then we will eventually stumble right back into what our flesh wants. This passage is a picture of becoming controlled by the Holy Spirit.
The Greek word used here that is translated as ‘lay aside’ is ἀποτίθημι or apotithēmi. It means to cast off or lay aside or put away. It is in an aorist participle in middle voice. What this is describing is simple action, in other words, this is a command to do something deliberately. What are we to put away? The first thing mentioned is ‘every weight.’ The word translated as weight here is ὄγκος or ogkos. This word describes a person or beast bending or bulging under a very heavy weight. This weight impedes or hinders movement. What else are we to put away? It is sin. This is the Greek word ἁμαρτία or hamartia. It describes missing the true goal and scope of life. It is an offense in relation to God with emphasis on the resulting guilt. What is causing the heavy burden that hinders and impedes? It is the clinging to ones favorite ἁμαρτία. When our life is wrapped up in self then we are all about self-gratification. This leads to movement further and further away from submission to the control of the Holy Spirit and closer and closer to being a beast of burden to ones own self-gratification.
We are to cast aside or put away our pursuit of self-gratification. We are to deny self, turn to God then run with endurance the race He has set before us. The word translated as ‘run’ is a present subjunctive verb in active voice. What this means is that we are to run this race God has set before us continuously. Present subjunctive suggests that the action described is subject to some condition. Notice that we are to continually run this race with ‘endurance.’ The Greek word translated as ‘endurance’ is ὑπομονή or hupomonē. This word is made up of two other words that are translated as ‘under’ and ‘abide.’ It describes patience and endurance as to things or circumstances. That is one of the conditions that will enable us to run this race correctly. There is another. In v2 we see that we are to run the race looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith. The Greek word translated as ‘looking’ is ἀφοράω or aphoraō. This present active participle describes continuously looking attentively unto Jesus. Present active participles express continuous or repeated action. The context is determined by the main verb, which is ‘run.’
The mortification of sin is not something we can do by will power. We cannot will ourselves to stop sinning and be successful. This is what I call repentance with sorrow. No, we succeed at mortifying our sin when we repent with joy. We do this by forsaking our sin by laying it aside or putting it away as we turn to Christ the founder and perfecter of our faith, obey God by continually running the race He has set before us with our eyes firmly fixed on our Saviour. This involves prayer, devotion, and worship. It requires time taken away from the flesh and given to God. When tempted by an old besetting sin that clings closely, move into worship and prayer. Open the Bible and study it. Do not lightly read it. Study it. Pray about everything. Keep your eyes firmly fixed on the Saviour. Worship Him and pray for others. Do not give your flesh an opportunity. This is how we run this race. Endurance or patience is required, and those come to those who are controlled by the Holy Spirit.
Carefully read the following passage.
17 So this I say, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind,18 being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart;19 and they, having become callous, have given themselves over to sensuality for the practice of every kind of impurity with greediness.20 But you did not learn Christ in this way,21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught in Him, just as truth is in Jesus,22 that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit,23 and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind,24 and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth. (Ephesians 4:17-24 NASB)
Paul used the same word here that the writer of Hebrews did in exhorting us to ‘put off’ the burden our sin has placed us under. Here Paul says to ‘put off ‘ our old self. In place of it we are to be ‘renewed in the spirit of our minds, and put on the new self, created after the likeness of God.’ So, is running the race set before us by God, looking intently at Christ, the same thing as being ‘renewed in the spirit of our minds and putting on the new self?’ The Greek word Paul used here for ‘renewed’ is ἀνανεόω or ananēoō. This is a different form of the word he used in Romans 12:2 that is translated as ‘renewal.’ This word means ‘to renovate.’ Both usages are present tense verbs, which describe continuous or repeated action. Therefore, I submit that running the race God has set before us with our eyes firmly fixed on Christ and putting on the new self, created in the likeness of God is accomplished in our lives by applying Romans 12:1-2
1 Therefore, I urge you brothers through the compassions of God to present your bodies as living, holy sacrifices, well pleasing to God, which is your spiritual service. 2 And do not be conformed to this age, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind that you may discern the will of God, that which is good and well pleasing and perfect. (Romans 12:1-2 translated from the NA28 Greek text)
The way we mortify the sin, which clings so closely, is to become living sacrifices. This means, total self-denial as an act of continual worship of God. We are to turn from being conformed to the world by putting away or laying aside anything that smacks of flesh fulfillment. If that means turning the TV off then do it. If that means staying off the Internet then do it. If it means not being around certain people then so be it. Whatever it takes, turn from what is hindering you in the race AS AN ACT OF WORSHIP. Put what you formerly worshiped on the altar and ask God to destroy it. DO NOT stop there. Now pursue the Lord in the race God has set before you by continually being transformed through mind renewal. That means immersing self in the Word of God. Read it. Study it. Listen to godly preaching. Read godly books. Never stop learning about God and this walk. God will work a miracle in the heart of all who do devote themselves to this. This is mind renewal. This is putting on the new self, created after the likeness of God. Then you will know what is the will of God.
13 But all things become visible when they are exposed by the light, for everything that becomes visible is light. 14 For this reason it says, “Awake, sleeper, And arise from the dead, And Christ will shine on you.”15 Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise,16 making the most of your time, because the days are evil. 17 So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is.18 And do not get drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit,19 speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody with your heart to the Lord; 20 always giving thanks for all things in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ to God, even the Father; 21 and be subject to one another in the fear of Christ. (Ephesians 5:13-21 NASB)
We are able to run the race with endurance, become living sacrifices, put away what hinders us, and walk in repentance with joy because we become filled with the Spirit. This passage describes repentance with joy much better than I can do it. Putting away sin and walking before the face of God in victory and deliverance is akin to awaking from a dead sleep. It is as if God pours cold water over our heads. We awaken from our slumber and self-imposed darkness caused by the pursuit of self-gratification in a way so jarring that it is as if we have arisen from the dead. It is critical at this point to not fall back into the sin that had made us stumble. We do this by turning completely from it to devotion to our Lord. We rejoice in Him. We joyfully worship Him and understand that our standing before Him is based on His work in redeeming us, not in anything we have done. Then, with hearts full of thanksgiving, we submit to everyone out of reverence for Christ. This is the time we get into the Word and worship Him through our pursuit of Him.
This is how genuine Christians become spirit-filled. This is how they find victory over the sins that cling so close. They learn to mortify them. Counterfeit Christianity applies the wisdom of the world to the problem and is all wrapped up in religion. Genuine Christians know that their walk before the face of God is based in their relationship with Him not in what church they go to or what denomination they are part of. Victory over sin is not accomplished through religiosity. No, only those who learn how to repent with joy are able to mortify their sin and run the race with endurance that God has set before them. Then they can serve Him in any capacity He desires.
Soli Deo Gloria!
That was very good.
Good to be agreement.
I respect your thoughts very much.
You can get a little snarky – but so can I. It does tend to add salt to the conversation.
Many Blessings
where can i get more info on Kris V and his false teachings? can someone send me any links of names of books on him and his buddy bill johnson? valenciapf@yahoo.com
Just “Google” (Kris Vallotton, Bill Johnson, Jesus Culture, Bethel Church) and add (false teacher, false teaching, heresy, apostasy, cult, blasphemy, lies, etc.). You could also look up New Apostolic Reformation and Word Of Faith.
You’ll get plenty of hits.
That will get you started down this black hole of false teachings espoused by these folks.
Blessings
I find your writings to be very in line with scripture,which in these last days are hard to find through the building that are only naking Christ..For he is the true Church.I enjoyed what I’ve read of your writings.Thank You for visiting my website.God bless You.
Julia
precioussheepofrenown.wordpress.com
So many people prefer to read so called “spiritual book” when the Bible alone is what we all need.
Was there anything God has left out that we need to seek from somewhere else?
Or is there anything that the Holy Spirit cannot teach us as we read the Word of God?
John 14:26
But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.
John 1:1-4
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men.
Do not get me wrong that I reject any teaching from man. My father is a pastor and he often says “when listen to any teaching, you must check with the Bible and get a personal revelation not just take my word for it”.
John 7:17
If anyone’s will is to do God’s will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority.
The painful truth is that when we gaze our sights upon signs and wonders we’re no longer seeking to do God’s will but what God can do for our will and Jesus Christ is no longer our one and only purpose of life but rather serves the purpose of our needs.
Signs and wonders will follow if you abide in Christ. There’s no need to search for it. It will come to you. First thing we need to understand is that no sign or wonder can come before His word.
John 15:7
If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
Excuse my English, I’m not very good at it.
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I will not call myself a sinner because my spirit is saved but I know that I still can sin because our soul is not saved at conversion. That is why sanctification is needed. I don’t appreciate the term charismania coming from another christian. God doesn’t save anyone and take them out of the “signs and wonders” movement. There are definitely abuses but do not throw the baby out with the bath water.
But you are a sinner, saved by grace. Their is no shame in that fact. You are spewing out Word/Faith principles. Sadly, you have been conditioned and programmed by WOlF teachers, probably over many years. Am I correct? What they propogate is Gnostic teaching which separates the spirit from the soul. That is dualism, and is nowhere taught in scripture.
Hebrews 4:12
1 Thessalonians 5:23
AND if God says we are created in His image and He is three parts, than I must be a three parts also.
“In” Adam I’m lost, dead, a sinner, unrighteous etc
“In” Christ I’m found, Alive, a Saint, Righteous. etc
When I was in Adam it was hypocritical of me to not sin. Sinners Sin and can only walk after the flesh because I was
“In” the flesh and dead to God and alive to sin.
Now that I am “In” Christ, and if I make a choice to sin, I am being hypocritical.
I am “In the Spirit and now I have to choose to sin and when I do I am what the Bible refers to as walking after the Flesh and Paul in Romans 7 refers to now I am doing the very thing I don’t want to do.
So why than does Paul in the books that he wrote in the New Testament refer to Christians as Saints over 66 times?
So Paul must be a heretic too!
We do need to use prudence, caution and The Word Of God when certain words are thrown about.
There are people sitting in church pews who call themselves “Christians” that are, indeed, the Elect of God, foreknown by Him before the foundation of the world to receive the divine gift (grace) of salvation. These are often called “True Christians” and are, indeed, “Saints”.
There are also those in church pews who God has chosen to pass over (not chose to election) since before the beginning of the foundation of the world. These are often called “Professing Christians”. They may believe themselves to be saved. They may even believe Paul was referring to them as “Saints”. But if you examine the whole council of Scripture, you will find many references to reprobates calling themselves “Christians” and “Saints” who, on their day of judgement, will hear Christ’s words, “I never knew you”. These are ones The Father never gave to the son but they were deceived into believing otherwise.
I hope this helps.
Blessings,
S/G
It’s 2018 and this heresy of sinless perfectionism is still spreading. 😦 Here in Australia, two years ago in my own church, a youth leader believed & taught this, including visiting Bethel for a week of their teaching. Our church council tried to help him see the errors, to no avail. He resigned and took most of our thriving youth group with him.
Praise God that He is now rebuilding and strengthening our congregation, including with a new Bible-college-trained pastor. 🙂
This deception seems to be an easy one for the “father of lies” to spread. It is so sad and divisive.
May God Bless His Church!
Thank you for your comment.
S/G
And thank *you* for publicly exposing this deception.